tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post6716143084368138790..comments2024-01-23T12:49:03.885-05:00Comments on Jewbiquitous: An Open Letter: Machal/Bnei AkivaAnniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10434918343302976597noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-5318224523637208032007-08-20T11:27:00.000-04:002007-08-20T11:27:00.000-04:00just out of curiosity, would you feel so strongly ...just out of curiosity, would you feel so strongly if these guys were protesting genocide in darfur?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-23939610822611855582007-08-20T03:25:00.000-04:002007-08-20T03:25:00.000-04:00"to accost"are you being dramatic here? i doubt th..."to accost"<BR/><BR/>are you being dramatic here? i doubt they were accosting anyone.<BR/><BR/>"You are forcing/coercing kids to do this for you. Presumably these kids are on a Summer program, did they sign up for this specifically? . . . Are their parents aware that this is what their minor children are doing?"<BR/><BR/>camp moshava (of which machal is part of) is not a jappy sports or agudah learning camp. it is the educational summer program for bnei akiva, a religious zionist (and in the past, socialist) youth movement. so yes, parents send their kids there for exactly this type of a "indoctrination."<BR/><BR/>"It seems rather exploitive to me, and even dangerous, giving the heat, lack of supervision, and the fact that you have left small groups of children/teenagers alone in a city."<BR/><BR/>assuming we are talking about machal campers (are you sure these were not counselors or other staff?), we are still talking about tenth-graders, not ten-year-olds.<BR/><BR/>"It seems rather exploitive to me"<BR/><BR/>you say exploitive, i say educational.<BR/><BR/>"giving the heat"<BR/><BR/>spend some time during a heat wave in machal/camp moshava if you want to experience heat.<BR/><BR/>"I have a problem with those who cannot vote lobbying those who can."<BR/><BR/>what about resident non-citizens, illegal aliens, disenfranchised ex-cons, etc. or what about lobbying for something that is outside the confines of your political district (e.g., environmentalists from manhattan lobbying locals in alaska, even though they can't vote there themselves, on drilling alaskan oil fields).<BR/><BR/>"if they wanted to raise money for a PAC . . . fine."<BR/><BR/>if you are concerned about chillul hashem (and fanning the flames of anti-semitism), buying off politicians should raise more flags than asking people to lobby their representatives. from what i understand, it is specifically for this reason that aipac does not raise $ (note that is stands for public affairs committee, not political action committee).<BR/><BR/>"you are helping to spread the belief that Jews vote in America based on Israel"<BR/><BR/>1) many (most?) americans don't really vote based on what is best for america, but rather what is best for themselves (lower taxes vs. the welfare state), their ethnic/national/racial identification (irish, black), etc. <BR/><BR/>2) a strong israel is good for america<BR/><BR/>3) i'll fall back on brandeis (zionism = americanism)<BR/><BR/>"I don't think that there is any benefit in lobbying Congress. Lobby the UN, or the states that are giving sanctuary to Hamas and Hezbollah, but not Congress."<BR/><BR/>1) private american citizens have no leverage over the UN, hamas, etc. and thus "lobbying" them is a waste of breath.<BR/><BR/>2) congress, over which private american citizens do have leverage, does in turn have the levarage over the UN, hamas (e.g., with house appropriations, senate confirmations, etc.)<BR/><BR/>also, american jews have successfully lobbied congress in the past to further jewish causes. the best example i can give is the jackson-vanick. do you think the soviet union really would have listened to lobbying by private american citizens?<BR/><BR/>final thought: there is a value in teaching kids about political activism and practical democratic process. maybe engaging them as moshava does before they can vote will help address the problem of political apathy among those who can vote.Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-25120828954083786392007-08-15T22:43:00.000-04:002007-08-15T22:43:00.000-04:00I dunno, Annie. Methinks you underestimate the de...I dunno, Annie. Methinks you underestimate the degree to which the foundational ideals of America emulated those of both the Israel of antiquity, as well as of today. I respect your point about wanting to do what's in the best interest of the country one is leading or voting on behalf of, but fealty and national allegiance are superceded by the creedal basis of the American state. The cultural universalism of both American values and in a different way, many Jewish values, transcends the ethnic tribalism of most nationalisms. And to make things even more complicated, I just ran across a <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Their-Own-Invented-Hollywood/dp/0385265573" REL="nofollow">book with a fascinating premise</A> that explains how the American dream itself - as expressed through the most powerful mediums in this culture - was essentially redefined according to a Jewish perspective. And Americans by and large won't want to abandon the dream they've appropriated, regardless of the fact that it was defined by Jews. <BR/><BR/>And yet, none of this means that Israel can't be questioned, criticized or be otherwise considered something decidedly less than morally invincible. It just means that we shouldn't be so nervous about standing with it when it is right, and even moreso when it is in the right in a way that Americans can readily identify with and easily support within the framework of their own values as well.Ritmo Re-Animatedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15912086218531198114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-86414460047757893922007-08-11T21:08:00.000-04:002007-08-11T21:08:00.000-04:00LJ- Although I appreciate the support, as someone ...LJ- Although I appreciate the support, as someone who went on birthright, I find it unlikely that your friend's participation in the trip is what put the kibosh on the job. More likely they just didn't like one of his answers. <BR/><BR/>However, it IS likely that he wouldn't have had to answer such pointed questions about a trip to Italy or France.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-36173704344581368072007-08-10T11:06:00.000-04:002007-08-10T11:06:00.000-04:00YAH ANNIE! STICK IT TO THOSE ZIONIST PIGS! errr I ...YAH ANNIE! STICK IT TO THOSE ZIONIST PIGS! errr I mean way to express your ideas! (Great points and I had friend interview for a postion that would have stationed in a place in VA that starts with the letter "L" and he didn't get it because he went on birthright.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com