tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post8464868905202220527..comments2024-01-23T12:49:03.885-05:00Comments on Jewbiquitous: On UnfairnessAnniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10434918343302976597noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-6897258967119691452007-03-05T23:00:00.000-05:002007-03-05T23:00:00.000-05:00Sigh. Just click on the label Kol Isha in this po...Sigh. Just click on the label Kol Isha in <A HREF="http://onthefringe_jewishblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/markpt-discusses-one-of-my-pet-peeves.html" REL="nofollow">this post</A> and work your way back. (While you're at it, read Mark's remarks, to which I linked in my most recent post on the subject. Not every guy is particularly comfortable with the Kol Isha prohibition, either.)Shira Salamonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989302669175887512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-55654926688032335702007-02-27T09:25:00.000-05:002007-02-27T09:25:00.000-05:00DK- felt, not feel.DK- felt, not feel.Anniegetyourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04198222435895255867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-21039813861657171382007-02-26T17:42:00.000-05:002007-02-26T17:42:00.000-05:00Annie,It is regrettable that you feel pressured to...Annie,<BR/><BR/>It is regrettable that you feel pressured to conform to demands of maximum halachic compliance, at least publicly. A LW Modern Orthodoxy is increasingly harder to find in any significant density, I guess.DKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03266121991724292663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-52557845513619848872007-02-23T15:00:00.000-05:002007-02-23T15:00:00.000-05:00Annie, Religious women do it anyway. Good for the...Annie, Religious women do it anyway. Good for them. Shabbat Shalom!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdLGuSlrScJThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06013844663171790003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-8698737628671035872007-02-23T14:27:00.000-05:002007-02-23T14:27:00.000-05:00Another piece of ridiculousness--on another frum t...Another piece of ridiculousness--on another frum teen site (I'm forgetting which one now, but I'll find it), a teen girl was told that she should not make a skirt out of men's jeans because the skirt would (because of its origins) be beged ish. Whoa nelly. <BR/><BR/>I suppose that one could then extrapolate (although the site in question did not) that a woman should not make a skirt out of jeans originally meant for women, either, because it could be mistaken for a skirt made out of menswear. Therefore, no jean skirts at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-12148130458890826022007-02-23T12:43:00.000-05:002007-02-23T12:43:00.000-05:00Babytyrone- you are correct, halachically loose pa...Babytyrone- you are correct, halachically loose pants are acceptable, but I was talking mostly about how it is unacceptable to the community, rather than by law. I did, however, elaborate in my definition of tzniut.<BR/><BR/>It is one of my great frustrations that many people agree, but won't stand up and say that pants are acceptible. In the forum 'frum teens' it goes so far as to suggest that girls should not run in front of men, even while modestly attired.<BR/><BR/>I've decided that I'm all about modesty for the situation.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10434918343302976597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-10216947858279583272007-02-23T12:35:00.000-05:002007-02-23T12:35:00.000-05:00By my admittedly limited understanding, there is a...By my admittedly limited understanding, there is actually no definitive answer on whether the letter of the law of tzniut requires women to wear skirts rather than pants. While it has certainly become accepted practice in yeshivish communities to wear skirts, to the exclusion of pants, the source for this seems to be some obscure mixture of an antiquated idea that pants are men's clothing (which is clearly a definition that changes with time, even in the most frum communities, otherwise we'd all be wearing robes) and an idea with little to no early rabbinic source that somehow a separation between the legs is itself inherently immodest (presumably because it could make a man imagine that women have two legs, instead of just one?). In any case, it is pretty clear that women have a great deal of halachic authority to stand on if they want to wear loose-fitting pants -- certainly according to every authority they are preferable to tight or short skirts. It is a great (and to me noxious) irony that while tight clothing is by no means consdiered acceptable in yeshivish communities, it is still significantly less stigmatized than the wearing of pants, which seems to place one firmly outside the community. So, correct me if I'm off-base here, but as long as one's reasons for following the rules of tzniut are primarily halachic, wouldn't a swimsuit that is "in no way alluring" be the perfect solution to this problem?<BR/><BR/>As a side note: I grew up very religious, and I have an immense amount of respect for those -- especially women -- who have chosen to uphold (or adopt) the level of observance and restriction held to in the right-wing orthodox community. But the case of pants is a really good example of something I have noticed repeatedly. The power of rabbinic adjudication, accepted minhag and community reinforcement that so effectively draws normative behavior out of the seeming chaos of halachic literature stretching back into antiquity so often seems almost to bend over backward to make the lives of women more difficult. Can you imagine yeshivish communities being so thoroughly judgemental on the basis of such an ambiguously derived law, if it was the lives and activities specifically of men that it placed its constraints upon?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-79343133795429810992007-02-23T11:26:00.000-05:002007-02-23T11:26:00.000-05:00You and me both. I find it ridiculous that women a...You and me both. I find it ridiculous that women are (in large part) responsible for preventing men from sinning. <BR/><BR/>It brings me to another issue, which is that religious women are taught that men can't control their urges, that they must be protected against, etc, etc, and then expected to build a marriage (hopefully one of mutual respect) with one. Absurd.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10434918343302976597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34805796.post-66676348355112336722007-02-23T10:55:00.000-05:002007-02-23T10:55:00.000-05:00FWIW, I don't believe in a lot of these restrictio...FWIW, I don't believe in a lot of these <I>restrictions</I>. Call me a kofer, but they drive me nuts.<BR/><BR/>Some are nothing more than minhag. But more than that much of it is based upon some silly idea that men cannot control their urges and that irks me.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.com